True Commitment to Radical Imagination (Podcast Transcript)

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Sherylynn Sealy:
Welcome to a podcast by Grantmakers in the Arts, a national association of public and private arts and culture funders. I'm Sherylynn Sealy, GIA's program manager. GIA is a community of practice with a shared vision of investing in arts and culture as a strategy for social change. Since 2008, GIA has been elevating racial equity as a critical issue affecting the field. To actualize this work within the sector, GIA published its Racial Equity in Arts Funding Statement of Purpose in 2015. Since then, this journey has reaffirmed the many intersections at play as we leverage our dollars for the deepest impact and continue exploring new ways to be agents of change.

Sherylynn Sealy:
This podcast is part of the 2020 Grantmakers in the Arts Racial Equity Podcast Series. In this podcast episode, we are glad to have Walidah Imarisha, a writer, educator, poet, and the artist who coined the term, visionary fiction. We are also glad to have Lisa Yancey, an entrepreneurial strategist, president of Yancey Consulting and the author of The Thrivability Report, which discusses sustainability versus thrivability for historically disinvested arts and culture organizations. We are glad to have them joining us. Today, we will discuss ways to radically build towards a new normal, how to think differently about the future, and ways to put these ideas into action. So thank you for joining us, Lisa and Walidah. So how are you both showing up today?

Lisa Yancey:
I'll start. Hi, this is Lisa Yancey speaking. Today, I am showing up feeling loved. I have deep gratitude for my love community, my tribe, and today I feel that we can do the work, do the rigorous work and still hold joy. So I feel love today.

Sherylynn Sealy:
That's great.

Walidah Imarisha:
This is Walidah Imarisha and I think today I am showing up just incredibly thankful and grateful for the black youth and the black folks who are mobilizing across this country, around this world, who are changing the future and the present as we speak, and who are part of a long tradition of a black liberation struggle.

Sherylynn Sealy:
Great. Thank you both. And so as we get into this conversation today, can you first both tell us how you would define radical or radical action?

Lisa Yancey:
Well, I always like to really center in the Angela Davis quote where she talks about radical within the Latin meaning of it to get to the root of things. And I think that framing is incredibly useful when we are talking about movements and community organizing because what we're often offered is surface reform that does nothing to change the foundations of institutions and systems that perpetuate inequality. And so I think we really have to be getting to the root of things in our analysis. And when we are envisioning change and alternatives, they have to be as deeply rooted, more deeply rooted than the oppression that we are fighting against.

Sherylynn Sealy:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Walidah Imarisha:
And what I would add, absolutely to the root. I feel the word radical on its own has a double consciousness. So on the one hand, it is the root of something. It's the essence of something. It is the core of something. On the other hand, it's also the farthest from the center. It is the extremities. It is the stretch. And I like to think about Audre Lorde when she says, it's difficult to talk about double messages without having a twin tongue. And I think about this notion of radicalness, it's both holding the center, being firm, being clear, being anchored on what's the cause that we are working to dismember quite frankly. And then while simultaneously stretching yourself in all directions to the farthest extent possible to effect that in.

Sherylynn Sealy:
Great. So with that, and in terms of your own work, how are you prioritizing and practicing radical action as you defined it? And I know you both are very much connected with the arts community and the arts world. And even saying that, it sounds like I'm making it completely separate when this is all intertwined. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on how you're prioritizing and practicing.

Lisa Yancey:
So in my practice, I would say now it's 2020, in 2009 Yancey Consulting decided that we would work exclusively with organizations or on projects that impact historically disenfranchised, disinvested, under-invested communities. And the way that we filter these ideas of impact, we look at structural and systemic, we look at economic, we look at visibility, leadership, and environmental. And so before we decide to be a thought partner with anyone, we hold that clarity. And so for me, the definition of radicalness and this idea of having a clear purpose, having and knowing and naming the thing that for which you're doing is one part of that root.

The other hand, that double tongue that I referenced earlier, is the way that we think about the stretch. It's both in first thing, having an ecosystem analysis and understanding the interdependence of things and thinking generationally. So if we were to bring in the Iroquois philosophy of thinking seven generations, then holding that the work that we're doing now should benefit and make the world more sustainable seven generations from now. We're thinking about our work, even if we're focusing on planning over the next three to five years, what are the implications and what's the impact of that work that we're doing today that's going to impact tomorrow? And continue to name that in the imagination.

And the third thing I would say and the way that this centers in our work is that we interrogate everything. To bring in the miseducation, Rachel Elizabeth Cargle talking about the great unlearn. There's a lot of work. There's a lot of work that, and I want to be mindful of the language we because the we is not the same for everyone, but there's a lot of work that at different levels that we all must do to unlearn and shed the oppressive practices that we've been taught and the biases, and I want to say even internalized oppressive behaviors that we hold. And so we disrupt that by keeping that at the center in our work.

Sherylynn Sealy:
It's great.

Walidah Imarisha:
Yeah, that's so powerful, Lisa. Everything you said, I'm like, "Yes." I think one of the things to root in that original question as well is when we have a radical analysis, when we look at the ways that these oppressions have been institutionalized, they are systemic, then it changes our analysis because we recognize reform will not fundamentally change the way that hierarchies are structured, the way that oppression functions, because they are functioning as they were intended. This is not an accident. It is not something things have gone off course. Things are actually exactly on track as they were planned.

And so I think it's important when we have that analysis and rooting, as Lisa talked about, in this sort of temporal fluidity, recognizing that when we understand how these things have come to be in the past, it shapes and changes what we do now to get a different future. And so if we truly fundamentally want futures that are free, that are liberated, that are rooted in justice, we cannot reform so many of these systems that shape our lives. They have to be abolished and they have to be replaced. And so much of my work focuses around that. A lot of my work that I have done focuses on the abolition of police, of prisons, and of a larger carceral mentality.

And I explore that in lots of different ways. I have a creative nonfiction book that focuses on prisons and on abolition, really looking at the idea that sometimes folks do harm to each other. And then what do we do and how do we maintain rooting in humanity even as we hold the complexities and contradictions of harm, as well as framing the prison system as an immense harm that is done to entire communities? And so, I've really been trying to root in that and root in an understanding of recognizing we have to look at the intersections of identities and the intersections of oppression, because when we center folks who are living at the intersections of identities, that's when we see what true liberation for our entire communities, our entire society, can look like.

And a lot of my work focused around visionary fiction has been about how do we use fantastical writings, fantastical art, to help people see that different ways of being are not just possible, they are tangible, they are breathing, they are waiting for us. And so, I write also science fiction and a lot of that is about how can I create options and ideas of what these futures might look like? And I'm not trying to create the perfect future. I think we collectively together have to do that, but I think we have all lived in this system, as Lisa said, we have all been indoctrinated in this system from the beginning to think that nothing else is possible. We have to have examples and ideas and places where we can imagine something different. We have to have art that we can bounce off of.

And I can present a vision of the future, and even if someone's like, "I don't like that vision of the future at all, but you know what would be great?" I feel like that's wonderful. Reject my vision of the future if you want, I mean some of it's good don't reject it all, but really the goal is to get folks thinking concretely and tangibly about possibilities and recognizing these possibilities are within our reach. They are not something that we have to set a thousand years in the future. This can happen. This can happen now. This can happen very quickly, but we have to first be able to imagine that it's possible to be able to build it into existence.

Lisa Yancey:
If I may jump in with an absolute and an amen to everything Walidah said, and one of the things that I'm just loving and holding in her words and in her passion is first, the rejection of reformation. That we're going to reform, that we just need to cut the edges, we need to modify, we need to do a little bit and then it'll get better. No, if the roots of the system was designed to privilege the very specific few and particularly I'll name the framers were white men speaking of other white men quite frankly at that time. So if the root of that, every amendment of it, every modification of it, doesn't disrupt, upend, or dismember that root, that root is still there feeding into everything. So that's one of the things I love.

The other thing that I love about what Walidah was saying and why her work and others who do work like her is that her work sets the possibility of something we'd never had before. So anyone who's doing anti-oppression, anti-racist work, looking for just and equitable existence, have to be imagining because it was never designed to exist in the first place. We're holding a vision. We have faith that if we hold it in our head, that it can possibly become a part of our reality. And so the visionary fiction is actually the precursor to the visionary reality. And I really love what Walidah is saying and how it's truly a precursor to the possibilities that are yet to come. And I appreciate your work.

Sherylynn Sealy:
That was great. So I just want to create a little bit more space to hear if there's any particular moments throughout your journey and throughout your work where you've collaborated with someone, partnered with someone, and you just want to share a little bit more about what they're doing, what you've done with them, what you've seen. Just to give folks different things to keep in mind as we continue to move forward in this work.

Lisa Yancey:
What's coming up for me, Sherylynn, as you ask the question about examples is that the reality is that it takes a village, for real. And quite frankly, often my examples, the faces that come up are black women as the lead. And so I think about the work that's happening with Celeste and Shonda at the Pittsburgh Foundation and the Heinz Foundation. I think about, and they're advancing black arts program and the work that they're seeking to do and are doing in centering black lives.

I think about the work that the partnership with Maurine Knighton and Kerry McCarthy for the work that even led to The Thrivability Report and the number of conversations, because the conversations happen officially and unofficially, formally and informally, because it's always the work, it's always the kitchen cabinet work. I've call in the number of artists, civic practice artists who have been and continue to center and work in communities and working at the intersection of organizing, plus being a practicing artist, plus being entrepreneurial in their artistry, plus being a teacher to many about how to think about this work, elevating these ideas and ideas of how institutions truly engage, not outreach, but truly engage and what that means in community.

So there are a number of individuals. There are a number of program officers. There are a number of practitioners and administrators. There are a number of strategic thought partners who are really on the front lines and often in the shadows doing this work. So I'd like to lift up all of those and invite others to step up, to not just wait to hear, like when Walidah was saying, if you don't like my vision, awesome. Come up with one. Offer something. Let it be the inspiration for you to imagine something different. If you don't like any of the things that's coming, that's fine. Come up with something different than the now. And we all should hold the agency to do that.

Sherylynn Sealy:
Thank you.

Walidah Imarisha:
Yeah. Thank you for that. And I think, like you said, just really rooting in centering the voices and the vision and the leadership of the most suppressed and the most marginalized, the folks who sit at those intersections. And just really recognizing the need to center and to root in that. Part of my work and co-editing an anthology called Octavia's Brood: Science Fiction Stories from Social Justice Movements with my co-editor Adrienne Maree Brown, the premise of this collection, which is fantastical writing written by organizers and activists, is that all organizing is science fiction. And our framing around that is very, it was always fundamental and very important to my work around visionary fiction before Octavia's Brood and the work that I've done since then.

And I think it also is important artistically because it blurs the line, which Lisa, you were talking about and we've been talking about, it blurs the line between this idea that art is separate from organizing. Recognizing that the imaginative, creative, ingenious work that is necessary to build new worlds is the same artistic passion and fire that allows us to create works that explore and express our emotions, our feelings, the world around us. They are not separate, they are the same thing. And so I think it's incredibly important to recognize that all art is political, all art, as my co-editor Adrienne Maree Brown says, either advances or regresses justice. And so for folks to really be rooting in those connections, for good or for ill, and if you're not aware of what you're perpetuating in your art, you're most likely perpetuating oppressive status quos.

Lisa Yancey:
Well, and two things on that. This is not a moment. People are talking about this moment, this moment. This is not a moment. This is a movement. This is a movement that's been centuries in the making, and there have been various different moments of reconstruction, so you will, but we are a part and hit a crest at a moment of a movement that is now and that is continuing because it's not over until it's done. I wanted to lift up another thing that Walidah said about centering and being clear that when we talk about centering BIPOC voices and strategies and ideas and priorities, centering does not mean isolating, does not mean to say, "Okay, you tell us what to do and then you just go do it and we'll put some funds behind it, but then leave you there by yourself to figure it out."

I want to be very clear that the work that we're talking about when you center, you also support, bolster, be completely a part of fortifying the ideas, the strategies, holding it as credible, as the future. And so in thinking about how to be supportive, if you don't have a vested interest where you too could feel the pain, if you don't have such a buy-in that you know that the quality of your existence also hinges upon the abilities for others to have full liberation and that you're kind of on the outside. Well, I'm going to give some support. There's still this space. Centering doesn't mean hold the space. That means to be within community and be within communion. Don't just say, "Here, you're in the middle by yourself. Y'all go do the work," because that's not the point. Certainly lead, validate, resource.

Sherylynn Sealy:
This is the perfect segway to our next question because it talks about the responsibility of funders and Lisa and Walidah, you talked about bolstering and fertilizing support, taking risks. So what is the responsibility of funders and what type of commitment do funders need to have rather than, "Here is the grant. I'll check in with you in three months, I'll check in with you in six months, we've reached the year mark. Peace out, see you later"? So what are your thoughts?

Lisa Yancey:
I would say the responsibilities of funders, if you want change, change. If you want something different, look at every single thing that you have been doing that created this status quo and stop doing it and imagine something different. I would say that the responsibility is to know and name the root cause without fear, lean into it, claim it. Quite frankly, if you're not feeling pain, discomfort, but sometimes I even find discomfort a little too palatable because it's like slightly uncomfortable, if you don't feel like you're losing your breath, if you don't feel like you're going to be ostracized, if you don't feel like someone's going to look at you and say, "What the hell? Where does that idea come from? No way."

If you don't look like you're pushing something that feels like it is absolutely impossible to do until it's done, you're not pushing far enough. Do that work. Every time you feel like you've gone far enough, stretch further. There's the radicalness. Be rooted in the key thing that you know you're seeking to disrupt. First, you've got to be clear on what it is that you're trying to disrupt. And you're not just trying to disrupt, like let's increase their grant amount because that is a strategy towards something bigger. That is one of the things. And if you're stuck on, I need to add one more zero and then it's done, then you're not rooted in the problem. So be root, name and own the problem, but stop doing the same things and keep stretching. Keep stretching until your body aches. Keep stretching until your colleagues are looking at you like, "Where's that coming from?" Keep stretching until people who didn't call on you before now call you say, "Okay, I see you."

Sherylynn Sealy:
That's great.

Walidah Imarisha:
Yes. Amen. And I think part of that, connecting to what Lisa's saying and just what we talked about before, is recognizing the ways that foundations, philanthropy, the nonprofit industrial complex in general, is part of this system. It was supported, created, and pushed forward to maintain oppressive structures. It is not neutral. I think that piece is really important. That there are institutions that like to think of themselves as neutral, and I think philanthropy is one of them. I think, as someone who teaches at a university level, academia is certainly one of them where they're like, "We are neutral spaces that if anything, we do more good than ill." The reality is all of these systems were created to maintain the status quo, and that is deeply rooted in the foundations of this.

I encourage every single funder to read INCITE!'s anthology, The Revolution Will Not Be Funded. And then when you finish it, pick it up and read it again and take notes because it is incredibly important to know the history of philanthropies and foundations, to see the ways that they have been conceptualized from the beginning to support the existing system. It's again, something that is structural and foundational. That doesn't mean there aren't spaces to subvert or to disrupt or to reimagine within that, but you have to understand that the foundational purpose of this was to further oppressive systems and hierarchies. Because if you don't, then you will continue to think that, "Oh, if I'm just a good person and come in with a good heart and hope for the best," that things will go well.

The reality is you have to fight, tooth and nail, every single day to swim upstream, to fight against the ways that these institutions were created to function. And I think the other piece that's incredibly important as well is, as Lisa's talking about, when we're moving these resources though, the need to center the vision, the voices, and the leadership, to remove as many barriers as possible, to give no strings attached resources because we implicitly trust the dreams and the vision of BIPOC communities. And we trust because we have seen over and over and over again for centuries that when the vision, the voices, and the dreams of black folks and other communities of color are centered, it makes everyone's life better. It changes the world for the better again and again and again.

And so to say, "Oh my God, y'all have been holding this work for so long. How can we give these resources to you and know that you will use them in the best way possible? And while we continue to do our work to try and dismantle as much as we can, the ways that these systems we are part of continue oppression." But I think it's so important recognizing the need for no strings at all, no parameters or designations around the money that is being given to communities because communities have a proven track record for centuries that we fight and we win and we win for everyone. And many of the things that make those wins possible, that make these liberated futures possible, are things that cannot be quantified. Political education and leadership development and capacity building and community creation and space for dreaming and visioning. You cannot come out, "Okay, well what is your agenda for your collective visioning of the future a hundred years from now?" That will kill the creativity.

And this goes back to that idea of organizing and art not being separate. You don't sit down with an artist and say, "Well, I need you to paint something that covers two thirds of this canvas and incorporates these four different colors and reflects this specific angle." But we do that for community-based organizations every day when you're giving them funding. You try and completely limit and control their creativity and their ingenuity. So instead saying, "We trust because y'all have done this over and over again. Here are the resources. You tell us what else you need. We're going to be here trying to do our work and dismantle as much of this oppression as we possibly can."

Lisa Yancey:
Write the check. Write the check, make the connections, open your doors, and create access to spaces and communities. So just do it.

Sherylynn Sealy:
I have two mics in my hands and I just released them to the ground. Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, we have come to the end of our podcast. Thank you so much, Lisa and Walidah, for the conversation and for participating in our Racial Equity Podcast Series. Your work sheds a lot of light on how we should be thinking, strategizing, and acting toward the future and what will hopefully be the future that we'll live to see. And to our listeners, we look forward to continuing these conversations, so be sure to tune into the GIA Racial Equity Podcast Series, be sure to follow us on Facebook at GI Arts, Twitter at GI Arts, and Instagram at Grantmakers in the Arts. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me, Sherylynn Sealy, at sherylynn@giarts.org. And lastly, as Dr. Mae Jemison says, "Never be limited by other people's limited imaginations." So to everyone listening, keep visualizing, keep imagining radically and take action towards true liberation. Thank you so much for listening.