Frameworks for Black Communities and Other Communities of Color (Podcast Transcript)

This Podcast was recorded on January 22, 2020. The full transcript of this podcast is published below.
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Sherylynn Sealy:
Welcome to a podcast by Grantmakers in the Arts, a national association of public and private arts and culture funders. I’m Sherylynn Sealy, GIA’s program manager. GIA is a community of practice with a shared vision of investing in arts and culture as a strategy for social change. Since 2008, GIA has been elevating racial equity as a critical issue affecting the field. To actualize this work within the sector, GIA published its racial equity and arts funding statement of purpose in 2015. Since then this journey has reaffirmed the many intersections at play as we leverage our dollars for the deepest impact and continue exploring new ways to be agents of change.

Sherylynn Sealy:
This podcast is part of the 2020 Grantmakers in the Arts Racial Equity Podcast Series. In this podcast episode, we are glad to have ABFE, a philanthropic partnership for black communities, joining us. We’ll be hearing from Edward Jones, ABFE’s Vice President of Programs, and Anthony Simmons, ABFE’s Manager of Racial Equity and Grantmaking Program. And we’ll discuss how their strategic framework and tools can offer a deeper impact in communities that are often ignored.

Sherylynn Sealy:
So Anthony and Edward, thank you for joining us today.

Anthony Simmons:
Thank you.

Edward Jones:
Thank you.

Sherylynn Sealy:
First and foremost, let’s build some context for our listeners. Edward, can you tell us what ABFE’s role is in the funding community? Is ABFE a funder?

Edward Jones:
Oh, thank you. No, we’re not a funder. We are a member association. We’re actually the oldest member association as we’re approaching 50 years. Most folks know us to be the Association of Black Foundation Executives, but a few years ago we just adopted the acronym as a means of just really kind of creating a quick way to recognize who we are as an organization. But our work since its inception has always been focused on effective and responsive philanthropy for black communities.

Edward Jones:
In its founding, our work as a member association has been to really help and guide other funders to be better at their grantmaking and to be very explicit about how they fund when they are looking to support black populations. Oftentimes, as you know, philanthropy will talk about the issues of marginalized or underserved or underrepresented, a number of ways of looking at this work.

Edward Jones:
But our work is to push folks to think about the disaggregated data. Think about explicitly, if you’re talking about funding black communities, then name it. Don’t be afraid of using black in your commitments to working, or African-Americans, but understand too that it’s not a monolithic strategy. It requires some deep thought and processing of how are you looking to affect positive outcomes in specific populations, whether they are immigrant populations or native born populations, LGBTQ populations, all the other areas in which we see the nuances that are represented in other identity-based groups. We want folks to think about the same strategies when they are funding black populations and be unapologetic about doing that kind of work.

Sherylynn Sealy:
That’s right. And I think the key word that you shared there was disaggregating. It’s so important to look at the data because you can see within the data that statistics look different. Communities are receiving different amounts of funding, so to ignore that is ignoring the problem.

Edward Jones:
Yes.

Sherylynn Sealy:
So thank you for noting that. And speaking of impact, can you both share a bit about what ABFE is doing to drive communities toward racial justice?

Anthony Simmons:
Certainly. Well, I can take sort of part of it, particularly when we’re talking about sort of racial justice. ABFE has an overriding frame and that’s our responsive philanthropy in black communities framework, which really focuses on the elimination of disparities that have been historic. So the signature piece, at least in that work, is our racial equity training. And those trainings actually center on the drivers of poor and disparate outcomes in black communities and other communities of color. We also provide technical assistance and tools for foundations to lead community change efforts, particularly in places where there’s been a long history of racial inequity. So whether it’s our workshops, our technical assistance, and also philanthropic advisement really helps our clients and participants develop a shared understanding, a language regarding structural racism, racial equity, diversity and inclusion, terms that are often used frequently and sometimes interchangeably in philanthropy.

Sherylynn Sealy:
Yeah.

Anthony Simmons:
So just making clear distinctions for folks. And what folks get out of the trainings and the workshops shared definitions of how to sort of move forward with this work, but the most critical thing that they receive is an understanding of a framework for effective and responsive philanthropy and tools that can be used to actually advance those. And so there are three tools and we’re fortunate enough to have sort of history in using these tools as they were generated by Annie E. Casey a number of years ago as part of their Race Matters Toolkit. And so there is a data disaggregation tool that helps design policies, programs, and investment strategies. There is our racial equity impact analysis, and there are a number of these racial equity impact analysis across the sector ours really sort of is simple and boils down to a handful of questions that tries to analyze the impact of any proposed policy, program, or investment strategy on a particular community. And lastly, a messaging tool, how to talk about race and some messaging opportunities and challenges being faced by marginalized communities accurately and, more importantly, effectively.

Sherylynn Sealy:
Yeah. And I want to highlight there, you said marginalized communities as opposed to saying black communities because your work, while it is a philanthropic partnership for black communities, it is applicable to all communities of color. So thank you.

Anthony Simmons:
Yes. Sure. And so ABFE is transforming and partnering with black communities and so the heart of our frame is around deconstructing anti-black racism, right? And so it really ultimately depends on where you are. And what I often say is that if I’m in New York city or if I’m in New England or I’m from in the South, or even the Midwest, I may likely focus primarily on black communities, those being the most marginalized. But certainly if I’m in the Southwest, if I’m in communities like San Diego or Phoenix, then I’m more likely to focus on Latinx communities, right? If I’m in Oklahoma or the plains, I’m certainly focusing primarily on indigenous communities, right?

Sherylynn Sealy:
Sure. Yeah.

Edward Jones:
And what’s important to all of this work is that we don’t see it as something that can be compartmentalized, so there’s only in your funding strategy, in your organization, you can have the racial equity element over in a corner somewhere. It should be embedded in all avenues, all operations in which you do your work. It’s an internal exploration as well as an external exercise. And to that point, what ultimately becomes key for this work is that it’s not also something that you would just put on a shelf or check off a box and say, “Oh, I’ve taken this training.” And then think that you’ve figured it all out. It is an ongoing journey for folks and if you’re really committed to this work, it is one that you will commit to for the longterm, not something that would be in a particular grant cycle or just when the budget for professional development allows some money for a specific training process.

Edward Jones:
And as we do this work we do thread this through everything that we do, whether they’re webinars, our annual meeting, which, shameless plug, it would be in Raleigh, North Carolina, April 16th through the 18th this year.

Sherylynn Sealy:
Nice. Great.

Edward Jones:
We’re going to talk about this work. We have conversations and pull together cohorts for our Connecting Leaders Fellowship Program, which we also explore these issues of racial equity when we’re embedded in community, as well as giving them an entree to this work that we offer up and through trustees. We know just as their lack of representation in so many different areas, professional areas, it also shows up in philanthropy, where there’s just a dearth of trustees of color, but particularly black trustees and our work in trying to connect and create better spaces and better opportunities for black trustees and this work becomes another element, another opportunity through which we have a chance to advance racial equity, again throughout all avenues of philanthropic institutions.

Sherylynn Sealy:
That’s right. Those are great. Thank you. So we are dealing with the unfortunate truth that 4% of cultural philanthropy goes towards organizations of color. And then if we unpack that even further, the largest predominantly white nonprofit theater companies in America have budgets between $50 and $60 million, but the largest predominantly African American theater company has a budget of $3.5 million, which is significantly different. So what are some strategies that funders can practice so that in five to 10 years from now we can see a significant shift in the current giving and budget sizes?

Edward Jones:
Great question. Well, we can both weigh in on this. First of all, thank you for illuminating those kinds of numbers. When we talk about our work and really work to educate the field, and it actually goes beyond the field, it goes into communities, it goes into municipalities, into the government agencies and other agencies. Those kinds of numbers are the real stories that need to be shown. And oftentimes those organizations that have these large budgets, they’re entrusted with a number of things that smaller budgeted organizations aren’t entrusted with, they’re not given the opportunity to fail. Smaller organizations are not given the opportunity to explore because their budgets are so limited to a specific way of doing that work. And so when you show that kind of disparity, it should be eye opening for folks. We see funders that will say oftentimes that they don’t want to fund an organization that doesn’t meet a certain budget minimum.

Edward Jones:
It may be a half million dollars, it may be a million dollars. And then by and large black organizations or organizations of color have not been granted access for a very long time. So we don’t get those dollars because we’re not given the opportunity to get those dollars. So it’s almost as if you’re creating the self fulfilling prophecy of denying organizations the chance to have stronger capacity, particularly black led organizations, and then you say they’re not able to manage that money, but you’re not giving them the opportunity to have access to those kinds of resources.

Anthony Simmons:
And so sort of to remedy this one of our approaches, and certainly what we promote, again, going back to our responsive philanthropy model, seven areas of investment that we know lead to change. And so getting funders to do a number of things, fund more civic engagement, supporting more political power, supporting more community organizing, and frankly, people power, shifting some dollars from direct service work to more work that focuses on policy, advocacy, and overall systems reform, funding economic development, and more importantly economic power, funding research and intellectual power, funding communications and narrative change, something that I know sort of really took off, particularly within the arts, and lastly leadership development and organizational infrastructure. So to Edward’s point, moving away or shifting away more from providing sort of project based support to more operational support.

Sherylynn Sealy:
Exactly.

Anthony Simmons:
You know, folks have rent that needs to be paid, right?

Sherylynn Sealy:
Yeah.

Anthony Simmons:
Right, right. Payroll needs to be met. And while some of our smallest organizations do amazing yeoman like work, it can be a struggle for them just to literally make sure that they’ve got payroll for a very small staff. And so to that point, one of the things that we have been advising funders to do is begin to consider organizations that operate under these thresholds that we’ve historically set up, right? That if a local cultural organization has won the love and trust of the community, but they may only operate on $50,000 a year, give them a $50,000 grant. Number one.

Anthony Simmons:
Number two, don’t require them to have three or five years worth of financial statements to prove exactly how they’re working through $50,000. You can see how a small hyper-local organic organization has its impact by the joy and the kids and the parents that are actually participating in the program, right?

Sherylynn Sealy:
Right.

Anthony Simmons:
For these sort of weaken proposals. And so we believe that if more funders actually took sort of those seven points that I just mentioned, including shifting these requirements that they have for who gets a grant, I think we’ll see way more holistic impact across our communities that have actually been capped out for a long time.

Sherylynn Sealy:
Absolutely

Edward Jones:
And you have to… I’m sorry-

Sherylynn Sealy:
No, go for it. Go for it.

Edward Jones:
And you can’t ignore the impact when you look at cities like New York and Washington, DC, and San Francisco, where organizations have been pushed out of their communities while the service, the needs are still there. Organizations that are not able to even have really adequate accommodations to do the work that they do, oftentimes they’re making a difference with limited resources and have become accustomed to that because they’ve not found allyship in the funders and other spaces that have resources to support them, that it just doesn’t exist to the degree that it should. We emphasize that through our black led social change work, our case for that includes the strategies that include more than just doing, as Tony mentioned, the program related support that oftentimes does not meet all the needs of staffing, all the other resources that are required to really help fulfill that program. So the idea of supporting and funding black led social change, or if you’re working in other populations supporting change through those communities means that you’re also entrusting and empowering people that represent and reflect the communities that are looking for that support.

Sherylynn Sealy:
That’s right. And so with your training and working with philanthropy serving organizations and funders, have there been any real time lessons that the funders and the philanthropy serving organizations have shared with you in the moment?

Anthony Simmons:
What we have seen, frankly, is that it takes courage to move this place of tradition into really rethinking how it operates. One particular case in partner with our Funders Together to End Homelessness, an issue based philanthropic serving organization, in the past many of its members have been funders around housing stability, but when you are beginning to really explore what equity means, you certainly discover that housing stability isn’t just about having a home, that in fact there are other factors that sort of play into role. Labor force demands, right? What are the employment opportunities like in a particular place? Issues around health, right? Both physical and mental health and what are the access that marginalized communities actually have to quality health services? The educational opportunities that exists within a particular community all lend into how people live and I think where people live.

Anthony Simmons:
And so, Amanda, the executive director down at Funders Together to End Homelessness, has sort of really moved her organization in an amazing direction over the past two years to explore what this sort of sense of intersectionality really means for keeping someone in a home. And so as the organization has really moved the needle in its exploration around particularly racial equity and what it means, it has been a challenge for some members who frankly may not have that shared perspective, right? That may not really sort of see race in the middle of an issue of housing, despite our own history of red lining and housing segregation and everything else.

Sherylynn Sealy:
Data that exists and is public.

Anthony Simmons:
Sure, right. Is that as maybe one or maybe some members have possibly left the organization, they have actually brought in other funders that have actually never supported housing, but instead support health, better health outcomes, better educational outcomes, right? Certainly education funders have come to the table. And so what that means is now that there are sort of more perspectives being brought to the table to address the issue of housing instability.

Edward Jones:
What becomes important in this… ABFE’s been pushing this work for a number of years now, particularly since our CEO, Susan Taylor Batten, came on board a little over 10 years ago, who brought this work with her from Annie Casey Foundation. And over the years there’s been resistance. There’s been folks that have just not been ready to use the combination of words “R” and “E” (racial equity). And so what we’ve been able to see over the years, particularly more recently, is that racial equity has become the new black, if you will. It’s the new trend that folks have really started taking hold. The way it’s taken time to get folks to be on board with this. And so just recently, for example, the Southeastern Council of Foundations adopted 11 southern states inequity plan. The United Philanthropy Forum, as a national network of regional associations, has embarked upon a racial equity frame in its work.

Edward Jones:
We’re seeing more and more resource associations. We have folks that are embracing this work. And what we know to be true is that philanthropy also has a very strong track record of being somewhat trendy, somewhat willing to find a shiny new penny and hold that penny until it becomes a little bit tarnished and less shiny than the next new penny. Our goal is that we need this penny whether the history is tarnished, so we need to get folks on board to start moving this work so that we do see how our communities all shine and shine for the longterm, not to become something, again, that ebbs and flows based upon folks’ interests, based upon what’s popular, and based upon where the dollars go.

Edward Jones:
We need to direct the dollars to these spaces that dollars have not historically been going so that we see a constant and steady flow. So that those $3 million organizations do have the ability to become $50 million institutions because the money has always been there, it’s just not been directed in an equitable fashion. And our goal is to turn that inequity, that historic inequity, to a more equitable space for everyone.

Sherylynn Sealy:
Yeah. And it goes back to your earlier point about sort of like threading your racial equity work into everything you’re doing, or we like to say baking it in so that it’s not like, “we’re working on housing, we’re working on education. And now we’re looking at racial equity,” but rather threading it and embedding it into all of the work that’s done. So this has been awesome and there’ve been a lot of really great takeaways that you both offered, but I want to ask if there are any final notes that you want to make.

Anthony Simmons:
Well, I want to pick up on a point that Edward just made.

Sherylynn Sealy:
Sure.

Anthony Simmons:
And we constantly have to tell folks this, that shifting a hundred plus year old paradigm to be more responsive to the communities that have been historically left out will take time. And so, one, there is no three to five year funding cycle that will remedy this, right? This is 400 years in the making, right?

Sherylynn Sealy:
That’s right.

Anthony Simmons:
So let’s be responsible about how we approach it. That folks will need to exercise patience, and frankly vulnerability, that there will be trials and there will likely be failures, and in those failures folks will learn how to do something different the next time. And so it’s really incumbent upon us all to take whatever power or leavers that we have and really make sure that philanthropy continues to do this work where a hundred years from now we don’t need to refer to it as racial equity, gender equity, identity equity, or anything. It is just how we live, breathe, swim.

Sherylynn Sealy:
Exactly.

Anthony Simmons:
So patience, please. And it can be easy as soon as you get to that point. But yeah…

Edward Jones:
And if we’ve learned nothing over the past few years is that advances, progress can easily be eroded, erased, treated as if it didn’t even exist before, if there are factors that don’t want it to exist. And so it’s incumbent upon us to be more direct, more intentional, and then more vigilant in making sure that any small progress, any measures that you see that you can say, “Oh, well, there’s an incremental step forward in this grant funding strategy,” that it could easily be taken away just as quickly as those resources have been taken away if people take their eyes off the proverbial prize.

Edward Jones:
So on the heels of Martin Luther King Jr anniversary, on the heels of last year’s 1619 recognition of when the first enslaved people landed on this continent and were treated as poorly as our native brothers and sisters were treated, we have to recognize, to Tony’s point, that this has been something that can’t be measured in three to five years. It’s taken us centuries to get here. It’s going to take us, hopefully not that much more time to move forward and away from that rich important history that we cannot forget and we cannot remember if that’s not what we want to see for our future, then we have to start today to make sure that happens.

Sherylynn Sealy:
That’s right. Be patient on the journey, but continue to be direct. So I want to extend an extra special thank you to you both, Anthony and Edward, for this conversation and participating in our Racial Equity Podcast series. Your work is responsive-

Edward Jones:
Thank you.

Anthony Simmons:
Thank you.

Sherylynn Sealy:
Yes, your work is responsive and addresses systemic issues affecting the black community, as well as a lot of communities across the nation. And we’re glad for an opportunity to discuss that with you today.

Thank you.

Sherylynn Sealy:
Yes, you’re very welcome. To our listeners, we look forward to continuing these conversations, so be sure to tune in to the GIA Racial Equity Podcast Series and be sure to follow us on Facebook at GIArts, Twitter @GIArts, and Instagram @Grantmakersinthearts. And if you have any questions, you can feel free to reach out to me, Sherylnn Sealy, at sherilynn@giarts.org. And remember, as James Baldwin says, “Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced.” Thanks so much for listening.